RE Hypha Quest Discussion

[this thread is started as a reply to Kath’s and Guy James’s posts in the other thread]

Hey, @Kath.PlanetHive- thanks for sharing how you feel. I appreciate it! My aim is to make everyone show up with their best energy here in order to make this SEEDS and RE journey as impactful as possible.

You inspired me to open up a thread to talk about the numbers of Seeds in the Co-op Proposal. I’d love to get your feedback there. @guyjames’s as well.

As for the Hypha Quest - yes, you’re both correct - we made a Hypha Quest to fund Renaissance Explorers - with the idea that the compensation of the Core team would be covered by that quest instead of the Co-op Proposal. The lack of transparency on that was mainly because we had to rewrite it 3 times in the past month and a half - until we reach alignment - first between ourselves and second with Hypha itself. In the meantime I personally was setting up the forum and leading the Co-op proposal initiative (with some amazing fellow explorers) and contributing to the structure of the Hypha quest itself, so I did not have the capacity and time to hold space for a wider “Hypha Quest RE Explorers” discussion. And anyway - as our first structure was voted down by Hypha and our second one barely passed yesterday - we didn’t have much to talk about.

The structure of the quest is for $57k HUSD over 4 months Jun-Sep, as we currently initially get $7k for our work in the month of June. If Hypha approves what we do on the next 3 rounds we would get $15k for each consecutive month with deliverables around holding space for the calls, creating storytelling pieces (for decentralizing the knowledge around the GG) and reviewing the GG & preparing it for ratification. We currently have around 7 people in the core team that would potentially benefit from these funds as we envisioned to have a basic income of $777 per moon cycle per person and another bucket of a few thousand HUSD that would be shared with a gratitude ritual/meeting once per moon cycle to acknowledge the people who have contributed most. We also envisioned to invite other people in the core team (as chapter editors etc.) but the process of how that would work out is not finalized.

We figured out we should be compensated in this different way as we have to invest (in my calculation) between x2 and x3 more time in order to organize and make all this work and we also hold the responsibility for accountabilities and deliverables as well.

Do you guys feel like this makes sense? Is it fair in your view? Do you think the Core team is disproportionately and unjustly benefiting form all of this through that Hypha quest at the expense of the wider Renaissance Explorers participants? If yes - do you have a better ideas or proposals for how to make all of this work more smoothly? If no - do you support and celebrate us in this effort? Or do you think that these amounts for the Core team are too small and we should somehow be compensated through the Co-op proposal structures as well?

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To be honest I just haven’t had the bandwidth to go through all the various proposals and evaluate them. The original one seemed to be a mixture of at least four different proposals and I just didn’t have the capacity at that time to separate them and evaluate each one.

What has surprised me is that there is a ‘core team’ at all. In the very first session I remember @Rieki saying something like ‘let’s see if we can all get compensated for doing this’. I (maybe naively) assumed this meant everyone, and I see there is indeed a coop proposal to compensate everyone who does anything for the RE, which is great.

But it was never made clear that there was going to be on one hand, a ‘core team’ who get paid more, and on the other, everyone else. Had this been explicit from the beginning, or at least nearer the beginning, then it would have been clearer how things were going to work.

As soon as an ingroup is created, an outgroup is automatically created. Unless we are all paid the same (per contribution) or we are all unpaid volunteers.

I’m not worried about the actual money, because I would stand to benefit relatively little given that I can currently only show up for the Outer Space sessions. It’s more that I think we need to closely examine this tension because if this is the way things work around here, I am pretty sure there are going to be serious conflicts.

I would like to know how it was decided who is in the ‘Core Team’ and who is not. Is it simply those people who are able to show up for every session? Or are there people who can come to every session but are, for some reason, not in the ‘core team’?

Rieki said (paraphrasing) that rather than focusing on why someone else has got more abundance than me, I should create more abundance for myself. I agree with this, and try to identify scarcity thinking in myself when it arises. But does this mean that everyone not in the ‘core team’ should get together create their own separate Hypha Quest? This is a genuine question. I haven’t been around long enough to know how these things work.

Otherwise, let’s say the coop proposal passes, then we are all getting those Seeds, and then the ‘core team’ is getting paid on top of that from their Hypha Quest? Agreed, they have more commitment and more responsibility, and spend more time. Maybe that’s a tolerable situation for most people, maybe not.

If the coop proposal doesn’t pass, then we will have a situation where ‘core team’ members are getting paid and everyone else is an unpaid volunteer. I can’t see that being a desirable situation for anyone, although of course it’s in the context that we are all working towards a greater goal, so maybe that’s just my perspective.

I think it’s worth digging down into this tension and seeing how we can improve matters, because IMO we (relatively) early adopters will be much more willing to be patient and try to find a solution that works for everyone than people who come later when it’s more of a mainstream thing, and could cause a lot of conflict if this sort of situation repeats itself.

Overall, for whatever reason - and I hear you @apostol when you say you didn’t have the capacity to explain things at the time, and that’s ok - this could probably have been handled better. But let’s see what we can make out of it and maybe we can put in place some sort of protocol for making sure everyone feels valued for the work they do.

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Thanks a lot for clarification @apostol.
I personally have been feeling a weird tension between the RE and the core team especially because many things developed in the core-meetings didn’t seem to be shared until they were done. E.g. I know there are Core Video-calls, but there are no recordings of them. Sometimes I heard a little peace of info but mostly without detail. Maybe I was not looking on the right place but I feel like this has created some tension that is present with more people.

Without going to much into detail, but if I am sensing it right it feels exactly like the type of misinformation I see in traditional companies where the people higher up in the hierarchy have access to more information, which benefits them to keep the higher positions and the better salary. I fully believe this is not the intention and I highly appreciate the work all Core RE have put into making the RE a functioning environment.

I don’t mean to burn the process down and I believe something beautiful is evolving, but I feel more beauty in keeping the transparency up and allowing anyone to contribute to whatever exactly happens in the core team.

To remove the sense of hierarchy while rewarding the people that deliver more and/or take more responsibilities, I believe it could be beautiful if we distribute financial value in the following way:

On the end of a moon cycle,

  1. everyone takes a bit of their time to log the things they have done in a simple sheet.
  2. Next, people take a number (e.g. 1000) as total financial value RE has to give out per moon cycle and a number (e.g. 29) as total amount of people involved in the RE
  3. 1000 / 29 = average reward. Now based on how you feel about your contribution you can move this up or down (considering how much you feel like others have contributed)
  4. All scores come together in 1 sheet (with hyperlinks or something similar to what people have logged as contribution).
  5. People can change their own score if they realize it was not reasonable what they put based on what others put to receive.
  6. If the amount still doesn’t balance the total budget, the missing or left-over value will be equally removed from or added to all players.

This might look like something that can bring up conflict, but it is actually done like this in several cooperatives in a very successful way and in such cooperatives it is reflected on as removing conflict and tension (people mostly end up giving themselves too little in the first place). The first moon-cycle this could take some work (although this might still be way less than you’d expect), but at the second one it already becomes a matter of if needed changing your number a bit and shortly explaining why. And soon we can also shift this to changing rewards once every 3 moon cycles, so people have to check if they agree with the changes less often. We can also vote 3 people in to become guardians of the rewarding-overview I have described. In this way not everyone has to check it because many people could trust the people we’ve voted in to check that the value is still distributed fairly and talk with people that seem to outbalance the overview. Still for these people it should take very little time to check this and talk with people that seem to outbalance the overview.

I believe this has a strong potential to create balance and love on how we are going to distribute our rewards, while I would love to keep other proposed rewarding systems in function. What I am proposing here creates a unity consensus on how each individual is rewarded and it removes the need for people to upgrade themselves to “core” status to secure their own level of rewards.

I would be happy to work this out further and to hear your opinions on this proposal.

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Hey @Bart and @guyjames I just want to make this clear.

That was not our intention, no.

A potential RE Participant can get up to §10k which is current value of ~$1k USD while the “Core members” get similar amounts of 777 in HUSD for 2x, 3x more engagement and are not part of the Co-op proposal funding. That was our intention at least. I think at the Core we are undervalued even - and I was wondering if we should open the “Proposal 111” to the core team to participate or even the basic income in order to make things more fair - but that’s my personal wonderings at the moment.

I think that was made clear from the start - that there is IS Core, OS Core and Storytellers Core. Then at one point we merged into a unified core with less people in it. We facilitate the sessions, set up proposals, prepare the co-op proposal, manage the funds, communicate with Hypha are responsible for following up on Game Guide changes and proposing the game for ratification. There’s a lot of work going on to make this happen.

@guyjames where do you see “unpaid volunteers” anywhere in this scheme?

I’m interested in @Bart’s idea and we can probably set up a test for that. It’s very similar to the type of distribution that we’re envisioning for the bucket that’s above the 777 HUSD for core members, but I also think it could be a headache to set up for ~30-50 people (original group from the start is ~75 registered explorers). I’ll keep that in mind as an option. If we decide to test it - would you like to lead and oversee the implementation of that, Bart?

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@apostol thanks for your clarifications again and @guyjames I am happy to read your thoughts on the situation.

I am also curious for ideas on how we can make the work happening in the Core RE more accessible to grow the transparency of developments in this area. I don’t feel ready to bring up a proposal for this because I don’t think I know what information I am missing.

I would like to lead and oversee the implementation of my proposal if you decide to test this :slight_smile:. Who decides wether this is going to be tested or not? The Core RE?

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Well… I’m not sure. Who decides what to do with the Co-op Proposal funds? The structure of how they’re going to be used is in the proposal itself - so is it ethical towards the SEEDS community and people that came up with the proposal to change them after we got the funding? On the other hand there is the Research and Innovations fund there and “Proposal 111” that have some loose structure and potential for experiment. What do you think?

There is the potential to go with the current scheme of things right now and evolve and experiment with others(like the one you proposed) in the next few months. Short answer is - we have to figure this out :slight_smile:

If the coop proposal doesn’t pass (and I understand that the Hypha Quest has already passed) then it would seem that the only people getting compensated in that situation would be the Core Team. Leaving the others without compensation, and thus in an unpaid volunteer situation. I mean you could call it something else, but that is what it would be.

Or maybe I have misunderstood something…?

This was definitely never clear to me and apparently neither to @Kath.PlanetHive nor possibly @Bart. But maybe I was not paying sufficient attention, or looking on the right Discord channels. If everyone else outside the CT was aware of this then I admit it was probably my fault.

Ok thanks for clarifying, this was not clear to me.

Thanks for pointing that out. I haven’t considered it. We might hold off to paying anything to the Core members team until we see that the Proposal is passing. Right now there are no indication of it not passing, but that might change.

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Thank you @apostol for opening this topic. I really appreciate your explanation and running the numbers (of which I only understand half :see_no_evil:) I must admit it saddens me that my post invokes the feeling in you to explain yourself and almost defend decisions been made. :open_mouth:

Do you guys feel like this makes sense? Is it fair in your view? Do you think the Core team is disproportionately and unjustly benefiting form all of this through that Hypha quest at the expense of the wider Renaissance Explorers participants? If yes - do you have a better ideas or proposals for how to make all of this work more smoothly? If no - do you support and celebrate us in this effort? Or do you think that these amounts for the Core team are too small and we should somehow be compensated through the Co-op proposal structures as well?

If I would read your finishing questions from a vulnerable place I would feel attacked by the words I am reading. And to be honest to some degree I regret that I shared my experience with the forum. :disappointed_relieved:

It was never my intention to share my tensions from a judgemental place towards any one or any decision been made. Apologies if I didn’t quite hit the tone I wanted to with my words.

I agree with @guyjames and @Bart on many of the thoughts they have shared. Thank you both for your perspectives. :raised_hands: Also Bart I like your idea for an experiment. I am happy to be a guinea pig :sweat_smile:

I just wanted to clarify that this was never a question of should the Core Team be compensated more due to the higher workload. Of course, they should be! And if you ask me, I think none of us, but especially not the core team is rewarded adequately for their efforts. And even though this was the outlook being presented in the very beginning, several weeks and months in we all are still here contributing with everything we have in our baskets but not being rewarded.

I refuse to have this conversation from an ‘either or’ perspective where we are discussing the What.

I am more than happy to participate in any conversation around compensation in the light of the Pro Social principles for highly effective groups (especially No. 2, No. 3 and No. 6):

  1. Shared identity and purpose
  2. Equitable distribution of contributions and benefits
  3. Fair and inclusive decision-making
  4. Monitoring of agreed behaviours
  5. Graduated responding to helpful and unhelpful behaviours
  6. Fast and fair conflict resolution
  7. Authority to self-govern (according to principles 1-6)
  8. Collaborative relations with other groups (using principles 1-7)

With hope,
Kath :green_heart:

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I don’t think you should regret it @Kath.PlanetHive - I think it’s super-useful to go into these potentially tricky conversations now. There is nothing worse than keeping one’s mouth shut about a tension and then it explodes later on.

I am also super-happy for the Core Team to be compensated more than anyone else. The tensions for me are that it was not made clear firstly that there IS a CT (maybe that was just me though), secondly how the CT were selected (still not clear), and thirdly if those not in the CT were going to continue to work for free or not (seems not as long as the coop proposal passes).

Obviously issues of compensation and status go right to the heart of our identities and survival issues, so are always going to be tricky. As long as we assume the best of others while surfacing the tensions and working through them, I think we will be ok. :slight_smile:

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I just want to give some context - 1 week before the deadline of the current proposal period I sensed into the frustration that people were feeling about not having any financial support for their efforts and lead a quick initiative with the help and contributions of the other Core Team members to create the current Co-op Proposal. My motivation was the timing as well - there is 1 month voting period in order to get the first Seeds. I asked the community and the response was somewhere between “we like this”, “crickets” and “this is harmful and we should not put it up”. I decided to go with it anyways so RE’s have some kind of compensation going. It may not be the best structure but it’s something at least. I’d love if you guys participate in it and contribute, but it’s your choice to do so.

We thought about co-creating a larger proposal with all explorers for the next period - after Sep - so we have more time to get everyone’s feedback, prepare the activities and proposal etc. With the current milestone changes, that might not be needed though - as we might get funding from the Milestone Seeds.

Anyways, if you guys want to set up something else in the meantime - you’re free to do so. If you’re open to collaborating with the current proposal - you’re welcome as well.

I was asking because there are a lot of people who give ideas and critisize, but don’t want to actually come and ‘do the work’. Glad you’re not one of them!

Sorry for not making that more clear - but yes - there are people who hold responsibility around organizing all of this. Some like Rieki, Nik and Julio are paid by Hypha roles so won’t be benefitting from the quest, but the rest of us haven’t taken anything yet for our efforts. You can’t have such a learning process without organizers - so it’s natural. About selection - we were selected from the people who started this in April before inviting the wider cohort. That’s 4 months. About your third question - check out my comment above.

We also thought to invite other people into the Core Team as well. But didn’t have the time to set it up or execute it due to the other activities that are going on.

Hope all this brings more clarity to the subject!

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Oohoohoo… I don’t know where to start but one thing is clear:
Thank you all here and in the other threats for voicing what you hold.

Maybe I can approach that subject of “money” and compensation as well as transparency and communication a little different (took up a lot of space though, so feel free to just jump to the informative part).

First disclosure: I’m part of the RE “Core Team” and was present in most of the meetings leading to here.

Maybe a little history story would help to bring some context.

REhistory

Chapter 0 - Inception

During the late winter of 2021 in the groves of Samara a group met in the morning sun to sense into the future. Here the seed for a space to architect and alchemize the Regenerative Renaissance was born.
After a few months of visioning and sensing the SEEDS Elder Rieki brought this seed to the greater SEEDS space on Discord by announcing that soon he will invite people who are interested in nurturing this seed into an Academy for Architects.

Captor 1 - Birth

In April a few people followed that invitation and started refining the idea around the Architects Academy. Leading to it’s evolution to include alchemists and storytellers in it’s essence and finding a new identity as Renaissance Explorers.

These first explorers split into three groups to build the Outer Space, the Inner Space and Storytelling Space as foundation of the Renaissance Explorers.
In weekly gatherings these groups redefined themselves, gained new companions and parted with others. In this process a core of explorers with the heart to keep moving crystallized and took shape.

With a rudimentary definition of the Renaissance Explorers Reiki wanted to start inviting other people, regardless of background and knowledge to join as explorers, bringing with them diverse skills, experiences and perspectives. Essential elements to explore the inner workings of the SEEDS universe from every angle.
The core of explorers was tasked with creating this opportunity, without much materials and tools or time.

Chapter 3 - Setting Sail

After a month the Renaissance Explorers managed to build a ship, barely holding itself together, with wet paint and nails sticking out. Only the bravest would take on a journey into the unknown with such a vehicle.
But it promised adventure! New discoveries, a chance to leave the old world behind and explore the richness of unknown possibilities! And treasures and honor along the way.
The ship with it’s three masts was setting sail.

Onboard the brave souls started their journey joyfully and full of vigor. Veteran members took care of the sails, checked the compass and keeping course yet there was no captain but in appearance only, no allocation of the quarters and the storage room was empty.
Many new explorers were full of drive, with their own dreams and hopes. Yet, where to direct the energies behind that.
Every 7 days the crew of the ship would start by sensing, connecting with the stars and envisioning their path forward. Followed by a day of going to shore exploring the Lands of SEEDS, experiencing it’s blessings and pitfalls. On the campfire everyone shared their stories, the treasures they found, the dangers they faced and the maps they made.
But the a bit more experienced core explorers knew that the ship in it’s current state won’t suffice to take everyone far beyond the known. While facilitating these three days of exploration they tried to find new ways to provide the explorers with what they need, whilst also needing to navigate without a map or compass or ship strong enough to weather the currents ahead.
Only by holding on to the steering wheel focused on the general direction guided by their stars they continued.
First necessity were quarters for the explorers to be comfortable, to mingle and spark conversations.
But it was clear that soon resources and gear will be needed to embark further into the misty areas of the world.

Chapter 4 - Unknown Waters

For many this journey was taxing. Over 80 people started this journey but soon many started to stay on the ship to attend to their needs, to fish, or simply to recharge.
Soon the uncertainty of this journey came more and more to the forefront. It became clear that the route was unknown, the ship was still under construction and the resources to sustain all explorers were yet to be found.
Many of the explorers realized that not all of their hopes and dreams are easily obtainable. What they assumed was not the reality of things.
There was no leader, no gear for explorations, no guidelines, no harmonious core group with a refined master plan hording resources. Only the unknown.

Oh, that’s enough :sweat_smile:
The last chapters where probably unnecessary since I still have to dive more into detail, but I hope you enjoyed it and got a feeling :))

A more informative summary

There is no defined Renaissance Explorers. We have no clear structure and agreements in place to co-create and support our explorations together. Only heart and soul.

The Core Team was shaped out of all the once dedicated to this endeavor from the beginning in April. It carried the ship and tried to create all of what was needed while also already facing the wild waters.

Many things have happened without consensus even within the so called Core Team in the face of uncertainty and impending challenges.
In fact RE had three Core Teams, one for each space, that had trouble organizing fully before the RE started but after another month the uncertainty around funding and compensation drove us into the need to reorganize into one.
While all of that was happening, there wasn’t an official Zoom account (still isn’t) to use, record, store and share these sessions. There wasn’t a clear path forward that even made sense to share and wouldn’t change in the next 24hrs.
Only the big picture of what the RE are here to do was clear, but something the Core Team had trouble communicating well it seems.

The Core Team is here to prepare the foundation and facilitate the space to enable what the RE wants to do

This is the state right now. This one Core Team still doesn’t have a clearly agreed on master plan, how the funds are managed and who is going to receive what.
The use of the Proposals, be it to Hypha or to the Seedizens, are not set in stone as it might seem. It will be up to all of us to eventually agree on how we use these funds.
But before that we also need some kind of structure in place to facilitate these processes. To have clear pathways to go on Explorations, to take on ‘roles’ and get support for it.
So that we can deal with a proposal like @Bart s without exclusion.
That is what the Core Team is meant to do.

The last Core Team meeting, which in fact was the first Core Team meeting in which all members were present, was recorded and hopefully is still somewhere safe so we can share it with everyone soon.
It will give a better feeling for everything.

In the end I guess if you already feel frustrated around this topic I think it is easy to see how the people feel about it after almost 4 months in such a state :sweat_smile:

So please @Kath.PlanetHive don’t feel bad expressing yourself. You are not the cause for frustration, tension or any other seemingly negative vibes.

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Uuu I LOVE this conversation!:rainbow:

Thank you @apostol forcreating this new thread!
Thank you @Kath.PlanetHive & @guyjames @Bart for sharing so openly and honetly on this subject!! And thanks @MaxVBohn for the storytelling.
:fire:

I’ll start by saying: Yes, you are all right. There could’ve been a LOT more clarity on remuneration, compensation and overall financial flow in the RE. There hasn’t been. At all, I’d say…

Neither for not-core-team Explorers, nor for the “Core 'team”, actually :upside_down_face:
After months of uncertainty, we finally had one quest pass and will receive 7000 for work done in June as a group.

The co-op Proposal for vote right now is to compensate and reward Explorers for being in this co-learning journey, participating in exploration groups, creating stories, accesible articcles and art, …
I would love to see this Proposal pass and Explorers acknowledged for the awesomeness they have been contributing!

(btw, I’d love to participate in an Exploration Group on compensation in the light of the Pro Social principles with you @Kath.PlanetHive :heart:)

The so-called “Core RE” is still swimming in a chaotic ocean of uncertainty and unknown. It’s the nature of the game, it’s the nature of SEEDS at the moment. :ocean:
We are slowly finding alignment, steadily reaching harmony and hopefully creating an experience of Exploration that feels nourrishing for all of us!

Anyhow, thank you for speaking up! Please let’s continue having these conversations! It’s the only way we can all evolve and adapt and ultimately learn, which is what we’re all here to do IMO :star2::heart:

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IMO ‘giving ideas and criticising’ is part of the work, not external to it. Of course proposing new initiatives and carrying them out is also part of it. But if there is no clarity then I think it’s a positive thing to request it, which we have done, and now we have more clarity as a result, and thank you all who have responded for that.

If we don’t have a culture of asking for clarification and pointing out where things appear to not be working 100% then we will break the feedback loops which are needed for people to see if what they are doing is actually useful or not.

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Ooooh thank @MaxVBohn for this beautiful log-book and your kindness. I could feel ocean spray in my face :ocean:

(btw, I’d love to participate in an Exploration Group on compensation in the light of the Pro Social principles with you @Kath.PlanetHive :heart:)

@anahealingwords awesome! I get onto it. Let’s see where it leads us. And thank you for your kind and understanding words :revolving_hearts:

Also, I wanted to mention that I only managed to watch the last Outer Space session yesterday, where many of the above was discussed in a broader sense, which gives me some more contextual insights. :sparkles::seedling:

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Hello,
have read the thread so far and appreciate your discussion.
I’m finishing Ambassador Academy and Stephen’s & Phoebe’s Regenerative Renaissance Course at the moment.
I attended the proposal-nursery by DaYa, when apostol presented the co-op-proposal in question here.
(Mouse Frederick)
One take on that from my outsider-perspective:
Given the Hypha Quest got accepted and the Coop-proposal fails, all those who can’t benefit from the Quest should invest lots of energy on voting to make the Coop-proposal pass successfully in a second run.
Where is the problem? (Don’t know if this question is provocative?)

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Was this started by you somewhere, dear @Kath.PlanetHive ?
I have been getting lost in the forum and only today am trying to catch up! :star2:

Hi @anahealingwords . Yes, @Kath.PlanetHive has created a Prosocial group. It just started a couple weeks ago. We meet every Friday evening (European time).

@DaYa and @MaxVBohn - transitioning members into the core team, @keala and myself.

Thanks for catching this question @Mila :eyes: Apologies @anahealingwords I missed your comment from late July. Yes, we started an exploration group. However, I wasn’t aware that we meet every Friday. Seems like we need to clarify some things here.

Here is the forum thread: ⛵ Exploration Group to sail the Prosocial World